Graham's P200e thread.

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Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Grahamcracker » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:00 pm

I figured everyone else is getting a thread for their bike, so why not me?

The bike is 1982 German import P200e (no battery version and no auto-lube). It has a JL expansion pipe and a drilled out ait filter on a Del 24/24 carb.


Here is the story that got me to my current situation. I made it back to PDX with no soft seizes thankfully.

When the motor seized on Peoria Rd I was running:

160 BE3 125
Mixture screw was 2.5 turns out and a fairly rich idle jet, can't remember it off the top of my head at the moment.

Swapped it out to a 130 main jet and adjusted the mixture to 2 turns out in hopes of clearing up the low/mid range. Running okay, still hitting the occasional wall when accelerating. The plug said a bit lean still.

Put in a BE4 atomizer (last jet I had to play with) under the impression that it would richen most of the throttle range. The sticky about fuel delivery says that BE4 is actually leaning it out though?. The plug looked decent, maybe tickling the lean side but better (coffee with a fair amount of cream color?) Bike ran great throughout the entire throttle range, mixture screw was out at 2 1/4. Great rest of the ride back to portland, cruised at 55-65 the rest of the way back. I was getting the bike up to about 68 for the "plug chops"

Took the bike out for a little spin today, didn't have much time to do anything though. Ran like shit though. Couldn't take it through the throttle range smoothly. It was randomish when cutting out but more so in the higher rpms. Completely different than how it was running before.

Maybe the ht lead and plug cap are actually going bad, that will be next on the list to swap out. Can't hurt to rule it out.
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Tuna Cowboy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:46 pm

definitely change the cap if it is loose, the cdi is the most likely suspect. spend the money for a ducati, they work better. also take a good look at the junction box and make sure the wires are in good shape.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby jeffreyned » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:52 pm

I know you love that JL pipe, and who wouldn't, but I strongly urge you to put a stock pipe on there and jet it with a 119 BE3 and 160. That is the stock set up that Chad is currently running in his P and it ran tits all the way up to Corvalis and back. And he was running around 55-60 much of the time. You are a smaller guy and should have plenty of speed and power with a stock set up.

If you can't stand the thought of running straight up stock, consider using your 125 jet and borrowing my Simonini till you get the right jet for the JL.
:wink:
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby jeffreyned » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:54 pm

I had a B4 in mine when I seized it with the 24/24 carb. I think that was used in the 20/20 carb when they ran those on P200s in California if I remember my reading right.
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Grahamcracker » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:23 pm

I'm rocking the Ducati CDI at the moment. I had it on the stella and it was working fine there, so hopefully it isn't that.

The scoot ran beautifully all the way back for about 4 hours so, i'm not too sure what happened overnight. Probably something loose as Tuna said. The stator and wiring harness are new and installed by Patrick at ptwon a month ago so that can be ruled out at least.

The 130 Jet seems like it should be plenty big, especially compared what other people are running with the same pipe. I have a 132 on hand if I want to bump it up. Pipe ain't going anywhere :mrgreen:
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby spiderwebb » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:24 pm

as Tuna said = do rule out the CDI and the plug cap / lead wire w/ new good parts
then get back to jetting
a richer BE2 might be better
as would a ratio check of the idle jet

a CHT/EGT wouldn't hurt you sense you like to go fast
8) 8)

here is some info from the TDC forum:

Image
Image


On tuned Vespas, if it takes more than 4 complete turns, then pop in a richer idle jet, and repeat. This is the smaller jet on the left. The PX200 runs a standard 160/55 idle jet. The T5 runs a richer 100/50. The richness of the idle jet is the ratio of the two numbers, the lower the number, the richer the idle jet. The 100/50 is 2.0, the 160/55 is 2.9. The 100/50 is therefore richer.

Main Jet Stack:

Air Corrector

This is the hole that a set amount of air comes in to mix with the fuel coming in. The larger the number, the more air is delivered. A 160 air corrector is therefore 'leaner' than a 140 because it has a larger air hole and lets more air in. Changing the air corrector will affect the mixture throughout the rev range from 1/3 throttle to full throttle!

Atomiser/Mixer Tube

This is where air from the air corrector and fuel from the main jet mix before going to the venturi. Moving from a BE3 to a BE4 mixer tube reduces the amount of mixture from the main jet stack to be introduced into the venturi to mix with straight air from the inlet. This reduction is caused by the BE4 simply having fewer holes for the mixture to pass through. So a smaller amount of mixture goes to the venturi where it is mixed with the normal amount of air coming through the carb throat, thus producing a leaner running condition. Therefore, the BE4 is 'leaner' than a BE3.


Main Jet

This allows a set amount of fuel into the atomiser/mixer tube to exit the carb and out the spray bar into the venturi then into the case inlet. On the Si Carb. the fuel exit on the main jet is a metric size. Eg a 116 main jet has an exit hole of 1.16mm. The larger the number, the 'richer' the main jet. A main jet of 118 is therefore richer than a 116. The main jet stack has its effect from about 1/3 throttle to full open. This is a much wider range than most other carbs that have three jet circuits and not two, like the Si.

Summary..........

As you can see, there is a huge overlap between the two circuits that supply fuel/air to the venturi!!! Many people merely concentrate on the main jet when tuning but fail to look at the idle circuit, which overlaps. An example would be someone putting an expansion chamber on a PX200. They usually up the main jet by 2 or 3 points but fail to increase the richness of the idle circuit. Many engine seizures happen in the low to mid throttle range, I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions..........
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Grahamcracker » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:29 pm

CHT/EGT gauge has been the next planned purchase for the scoot. Just need to sell off some chrome bits and a seat to fund a good chunk of it.
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby jeffreyned » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:46 pm

Save money for a new piston and rings... :lol:

Kidding. Hope you get it tuned to your liking. I'm still experiencing PTSD symptoms after soft seizing my P coming down 30th and fretting about jetting and wincing on every ride. :lol: I only just recently stopped worrying about seizing it.
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby joe » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:59 pm

jeffreyned wrote:I know you love that JL pipe, and who wouldn't, but I strongly urge you to put a stock pipe on there and jet it with a 119 BE3 and 160. That is the stock set up that Chad is currently running in his P and it ran tits all the way up to Corvalis and back. And he was running around 55-60 much of the time. You are a smaller guy and should have plenty of speed and power with a stock set up.

If you can't stand the thought of running straight up stock, consider using your 125 jet and borrowing my Simonini till you get the right jet for the JL.
:wink:


what's the top speed on that bike?

you might want to check out the jetting database for set ups similar to yours
http://scoot.net/jetting/
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Grahamcracker » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:08 am

Swapped out the plug cap ht lead with new NGK. Pretty sure that was the culprit. Some more time will tell. Also swapped back to a BE3

Ordering a cht/egt gauge tonight.
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby spiderwebb » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:02 pm

when your back in I-Gene next time drop off my parts = main jet and atomizer so I can rebuild that carb I took apart for you that day...

hope all is better pal

when you have the egt probe / weld on boss do make sure it is in the right spot, out of the way of the frame for clearance and in a spot that you can get a wrench onto...
8) 8)

ps - I used a razor this past week to relieve my rear tire form my shock spring... now onto frame clearance issues.
:roll: :roll:
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Gearless42 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:01 pm

let me know if you need me to weld on the boss for the probe. Needs to be TIG welded with a special kind of rod cuz it's two different kinds of steel including stainless.
If you keep fiddling with it, it's going to fall off...
~Landon
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Grahamcracker » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:15 am

I'll have the jets and a six-pack to you next weekend. I'm planning on cruising down for the ride on saturday.

Where is the best spot to route the leads through on my P for the cht/egt?

The webshop that I bought the stuff through split up the order unfortunately too. I'll be getting everything on monday except for the cht lead, that will come on friday.

I may recruit your help Landon if I can't track someone down with a tig welder during the weekday. Would saturday morning before the ride be enough time?
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Tuna Cowboy » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:54 am

it can be a process to get the wires pulled through, just depends on luck to a certain extent. i would not attempt to put a gauge on before a ride unless you are starting at like 5 am and know you will have plenty of time.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Re: Graham's P200e thread.

Postby Grahamcracker » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:51 pm

The gauge will be put in well before then (hopefully on monday or tuesday) then it is just a matter of threading cable and what not
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